Robert Byers banned at IIDB

[AJ Milne]

You really expect a consistent rational argument from Guzman ????

Seriously, no. But it does get a bit frustrating, if only 'cos he beats you to the pwnage with the self-pwnage.

It's annoying, really. Sorta like in a brawl, and you've just picked up the tire iron, are movin' in...

And before you can even take a swing, the guy starts whalin' on himself with a heavy, four-foot steel chain, and all you can do is stand in awe and think: 'I can't top that. He wants to die, he's doin' himself so well, it's really only right to let him get the job done himself. I have no place here...'

[Dlx2]

You really expect a consistent rational argument from Guzman ????

Seriously, no. But it does get a bit frustrating, if only 'cos he beats you to the pwnage with the self-pwnage.

It's annoying, really. Sorta like in a brawl, and you've just picked up the tire iron, are movin' in...

And before you can even take a swing, the guy starts whalin' on himself with a heavy, four-foot steel chain, and all you can do is stand in awe and think: 'I can't top that. He wants to die, he's doin' himself so well, it's really only right to let him get the job done himself. I have no place here...'

Reminds me of the office scene in Fight Club.

[espritch]

Oh, I'm sure the slave owners raped all of the millions of females....what about all the northern blacks?...no slave owners there to blame it on. Besides, as I said, the thing to do would be to compare these Knicks players skin with their parents, grandparents, great-great grandparents' skin.

Most Northern Blacks came from the South. They moved North after the end of the Civil War and the abolition of slavery. I doubt there are many blacks in the US who have purely African roots. In any event, Africans are not uniform in their skin color either. Africa has the most geneticly diverse population on the planet since humans have been living there longer than anywhere else. Skin tones vary a lot depending on where in Africa you are. Consequently, skin tones of blacks in the US vary a lot depending on where in Africa their ancestors came from as well as how much they may have interbred with slave owners. Also, there are a lot of black people in the US with very dark skin. There were several kids in my high school with skin as dark as that of the two women in the picture you posted, despite their having lived in the US for many generations. I, only the other hand, have the same white skin as my Scottish ancestors, despite my relatives having lived in these sunnier climes for many generations.

[AthenaAwakened]

Oh, I'm sure the slave owners raped all of the millions of females....what about all the northern blacks?...no slave owners there to blame it on. Besides, as I said, the thing to do would be to compare these Knicks players skin with their parents, grandparents, great-great grandparents' skin.

Wrong again Sporty.

Slavery existed in the "North" thoughout the Revolutionary war and beyond.

According to Slavery in the United States

All the Northern states passed emancipation acts between 1780 and 1804; most of these arranged for gradual emancipation and a special status for freedmen, so there were still a dozen "permanent apprentices" in New Jersey in 1860.[45]

And just you so know ...

Ten Things Everyone Should Know about Race

1. Race is a modern idea. Ancient societies, like the Greeks, did not divide people according to physical distinctions, but according to religion, status, class, even language. The English language didn’t even have the word ‘race’ until it turns up in 1508 in a poem by William Dunbar referring to a line of kings.
2. Race has no genetic basis. Not one characteristic, trait or even one gene distinguishes all the members of one so-called race from all the members of another so-called race.
3. Human subspecies don’t exist. Unlike many animals, modern humans simply haven’t been around long enough or isolated enough to evolve into separate subspecies or races. Despite surface appearances, we are one of the most similar of all species.
4. Skin color really is only skin deep. Most traits are inherited independently from one another. The genes influencing skin color have nothing to do with the genes influencing hair form, eye shape, blood type, musical talent, athletic ability or forms of intelligence. Knowing someone’s skin color doesn’t necessarily tell you anything else about him or her.
5. Most variation is within, not between, "races." Of the small amount of total human variation, 85% exists within any local population, be they Italians, Kurds, Koreans or Cherokees. About 94% can be found within any continent. That means two random Koreans may be as genetically different as a Korean and an Italian.
6. Slavery predates race. Throughout much of human history, societies have enslaved others, often as a result of conquest or war, even debt, but not because of physical characteristics or a belief in natural inferiority. Due to a unique set of historical circumstances, ours was the first slave system where all the slaves shared similar physical characteristics.
7. Race and freedom evolved together. The U.S. was founded on the radical new principle that "All men are created equal." But our early economy was based largely on slavery. How could this anomaly be rationalized? The new idea of race helped explain why some people could be denied the rights and freedoms that others took for granted.
8. Race justified social inequalities as natural. As the race idea evolved, white superiority became "common sense" in America. It justified not only slavery but also the extermination of Indians, exclusion of Asian immigrants, and the taking of Mexican lands by a nation that professed a belief in democracy. Racial practices were institutionalized within American government, laws, and society.
9. Race isn’t biological, but racism is still real. Race is a powerful social idea that gives people different access to opportunities and resources. Our government and social institutions have created advantages that disproportionately channel wealth, power, and resources to white people. This affects everyone, whether we are aware of it or not.
10. Colorblindness will not end racism. Pretending race doesn’t exist is not the same as creating equality. Race is more than stereotypes and individual prejudice. To combat racism, we need to identify and remedy social policies and institutional practices that advantage some groups at the expense of others.

You really are a prick, aren't you?

[Dneh]

so someone tell me why in the world I should believe natural selection is responsible for skin color? And don't even blame it on skin cancer, as you almost never see or hear of any 16-30 years coming down with terminal melanoma.

Not true. Melanoma is not a common cancer but still an important one because it is quite deadly. The average onset of melanoma is 57 but it is the most common malignancy in women aged 25-29 years and accounts for more than 7000 deaths annually. http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic1386.htm. The incidence of melanoma is rising and we are seeing it in younger patients. It is directly related to skin type and UV exposure.

Other skin cancers such as basal and squamous cell carcinomas are particularly common and can be easily managed if caught early.

[Dneh]

What does skin cancer have to do with lamarckism?

If your "theory" were correct, there shouldn't be any. Why are the Australians of European descent incapable of manipulating their own phenotypes so their skins are appropriately dark? You yourself claim that "the course of a few generations" should be enough to do it. Why isn't it happening?

you must first show me that this isn't true. Got any studies on families that show scientifically that even though they are exposed to pounding effects of the sun that they have not increased their pigmentation over multiple generations? Your baseless assertion doesn't cut it. What city in australia are you referring to? There are different environments in Australia. Sydney, for example rarely gets above the 80s and often has cloud-cover.

Nonsense. Summer in NSW can be very sunny and really hot, often hitting close to the 40C mark. The UV index down under is also particularly high. Its no surprise that fair skinned peoples there, as well as places such as Arizona and Israel, are particularly prone to skin cancer.

[Guzman]

so someone tell me why in the world I should believe natural selection is responsible for skin color? And don't even blame it on skin cancer, as you almost never see or hear of any 16-30 years coming down with terminal melanoma.

Not true. Melanoma is not a common cancer but still an important one because it is quite deadly. The average onset of melanoma is 57 but it is the most common malignancy in women aged 25-29 years and accounts for more than 7000 deaths annually. http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic1386.htm. The incidence of melanoma is rising and we are seeing it in younger patients. It is directly related to skin type and UV exposure.

Other skin cancers such as basal and squamous cell carcinomas are particularly common and can be easily managed if caught early.

wow -- a whole 7000 deaths out of 6 billion. that's impressive. Tell me, why do you think skin cancer strikes most in places like Canada, northwestern U.S., Sydney Australia and the U.K?.....all cool, and often cloudy locations. With your logic, skin cancer should be rampant, killing people in droves in places all along the equator.

[Dneh]

so someone tell me why in the world I should believe natural selection is responsible for skin color? And don't even blame it on skin cancer, as you almost never see or hear of any 16-30 years coming down with terminal melanoma.

Not true. Melanoma is not a common cancer but still an important one because it is quite deadly. The average onset of melanoma is 57 but it is the most common malignancy in women aged 25-29 years and accounts for more than 7000 deaths annually. http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic1386.htm. The incidence of melanoma is rising and we are seeing it in younger patients. It is directly related to skin type and UV exposure.

Other skin cancers such as basal and squamous cell carcinomas are particularly common and can be easily managed if caught early.

wow -- a whole 7000 deaths out of 6 billion. that's impressive. Tell me, why do you think skin cancer strikes most in places like Canada, northwestern U.S., Sydney Australia and the U.K?.....all cool, and often cloudy locations. With your logic, skin cancer should be rampant, killing people in droves in places all along the equator.

The 7000 deaths is US statistic !

I live in Canada which is populated in large part by fair skinned European stock. We have areas of the country (especially, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario with very sunny summers and a high UV index). The UK can have nice summers too and people frequently travel to hot climes and get far too much sun.

And for the last time Sydney is not fucking cool and cloudy all the time-I have been there it gets very hot and sunny. Have you never heard of Bondi beach

Besides which it is Australia as a whole that is the skin cancer capital of the world, not just Sydney. Guess which is second? Arizona! Are you going to tell me that Tucson is cool and cloudy too ( I lived for two years in Tucson)!

[jerr]

*crickets*

So it seems Guzman isn't going to accept my challenge and denounce Robert Byers' comments. I'll remember Guzman's courageous stand next time he plays the "evolutionists are racists" card.

[Guzman]

Not true. Melanoma is not a common cancer but still an important one because it is quite deadly. The average onset of melanoma is 57 but it is the most common malignancy in women aged 25-29 years and accounts for more than 7000 deaths annually. http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic1386.htm. The incidence of melanoma is rising and we are seeing it in younger patients. It is directly related to skin type and UV exposure.

Other skin cancers such as basal and squamous cell carcinomas are particularly common and can be easily managed if caught early.

wow -- a whole 7000 deaths out of 6 billion. that's impressive. Tell me, why do you think skin cancer strikes most in places like Canada, northwestern U.S., Sydney Australia and the U.K?.....all cool, and often cloudy locations. With your logic, skin cancer should be rampant, killing people in droves in places all along the equator.

The 7000 deaths is US statistic !

I live in Canada which is populated in large part by fair skinned European stock. We have areas of the country (especially, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario with very sunny summers and a high UV index). The UK can have nice summers too and people frequently travel to hot climes and get far too much sun.

And for the last time Sydney is not fucking cool and cloudy all the time-I have been there it gets very hot and sunny. Have you never heard of Bondi beach

Besides which it is Australia as a whole that is the skin cancer capital of the world, not just Sydney. Guess which is second? Arizona! Are you going to tell me that Tucson is cool and cloudy too ( I lived for two years in Tucson)!

please back that up about Tuscon Arizona. And even so, virtually no one in the U.S. spends long periods of time out in the sun. Most people work and play indoors.

And compared to other areas in the world, Canada is one of the coolest/least sunny.

[Promethean]

so what's up with the skin color here? It would be interesting to compare and contrast these players' ancestors skin color.



compare to present-day Africans:

You are fucking stupid piece of shit.

The Kenyan runners come from a specific region of the country and all hair from one tribe. The Kalenjin

[Wolfie]

please back that up about Tuscon Arizona. And even so, virtually no one in the U.S. spends long periods of time out in the sun. Most people work and play indoors.

(my emphasis)

Please may we have some sort of statistical breakdown that proves this sweeping statement?

Kthxbai.

[Guzman]

The Kenyan runners come from a specific region of the country and all hair from one tribe. The Kalenjin

and?

[Dneh]

wow -- a whole 7000 deaths out of 6 billion. that's impressive. Tell me, why do you think skin cancer strikes most in places like Canada, northwestern U.S., Sydney Australia and the U.K?.....all cool, and often cloudy locations. With your logic, skin cancer should be rampant, killing people in droves in places all along the equator.

The 7000 deaths is US statistic !

I live in Canada which is populated in large part by fair skinned European stock. We have areas of the country (especially, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario with very sunny summers and a high UV index). The UK can have nice summers too and people frequently travel to hot climes and get far too much sun.


And for the last time Sydney is not fucking cool and cloudy all the time-I have been there it gets very hot and sunny. Have you never heard of Bondi beach

Besides which it is Australia as a whole that is the skin cancer capital of the world, not just Sydney. Guess which is second? Arizona! Are you going to tell me that Tucson is cool and cloudy too ( I lived for two years in Tucson)!

please back that up about Tuscon Arizona. And even so, virtually no one in the U.S. spends long periods of time out in the sun. Most people work and play indoors.

And compared to other areas in the world, Canada is one of the coolest/least sunny.

Back what up about Tucson? That Arizona has the second highest incidence of skin cancer in the world? http://www.azdhs.gov/phs/sunwise/. I worked at the Arizona Cancer Center, Guzman. Specifically on mouse models of skin cancer.

I live in Canada now specifically on the prairies. Our winters are cold (but frequently very sunny) but our summers are very hot and sunny and Canadians use what summer we get. Calgary, for example, averages 2400 hours of sun per year. We frequently get into the high 30sC in summer.

You really are pretty ignorant of the world around you.

[ck1]

so someone tell me why in the world I should believe natural selection is responsible for skin color? And don't even blame it on skin cancer, as you almost never see or hear of any 16-30 years coming down with terminal melanoma.

Do you accept the fact that genes control skin color (as well as the color of hair and eyes)?

[Dneh]

please back that up about Tuscon Arizona. And even so, virtually no one in the U.S. spends long periods of time out in the sun. Most people work and play indoors.

Ah! Thats why all the American beaches I visit are sooooooo empty!

[Wolfie]

My name is Gay Guy Guzzie
I am a racist fuck
I tolerate wet back spics
With blacks I have no truck.

My name is Gay Guy Guzzie
I joined the Ku Klux Klan
The world would be a better place
Without the African.

They've got no blacks in China
How did they manage that?
Do they dress in pure white silken sheets
And wear white pointy hats?

I think I'll visit Beijing
Check out their point of view
And bring it back to Uncle Sam
So we can do it too.

So next time I burn a cross
I'll nail a n***er to it
Kill two birds with one burning stone
And spew my racist bullshit.

My name is Gay Guy Guzzie
And when I stand for trial
I'll tell the judge it was god's will
That's sure to make him smile.

Though I might go to prison
Or to the cell of gas
I know the lord will smile on me
And save my sorry ass.

[ericmurphy]

please back that up about Tuscon Arizona. And even so, virtually no one in the U.S. spends long periods of time out in the sun. Most people work and play indoors.

Guzman, you're a fucking retard. Have you ever been to the beach before? Do they have beaches in Texas? My sister lives on Oahu, and if you think everyone spends the day indoors in fucking Hawaii, you're even more moronic that you look, which is hard to believe.

And compared to other areas in the world, Canada is one of the coolest/least sunny.

What's your point, asshole? You seem to be saying people who live in hot, sunny climates should quickly (within a few generations) evolve melanin-heavy skin. You have zero evidence that this happens, and contrary evidence is overwhelming. Arguing over whether Canada is sunny or not does your argument exactly no good.

[Promethean]

The Kenyan runners come from a specific region of the country and all hair from one tribe. The Kalenjin

and?

and only a tardo would need further explanation.

[Wolfie]

I suppose the Guzster has never seen Porgy and Bess as it involves tinted people...


Summertime, and my skin is peeling
Freckles forming and the UV is high
If you want to bitch, don't blame the weather
Just rub the sunblock into your hide.

One of these mornings, you'll get the cancer
Melanoma from those rays from the sky
But 'til that morning, there's nothing can save you
Except Protection Factor six million and five.

[Guzman]

snip

[Guzman]

so someone tell me why in the world I should believe natural selection is responsible for skin color? And don't even blame it on skin cancer, as you almost never see or hear of any 16-30 years coming down with terminal melanoma.

Do you accept the fact that genes control skin color (as well as the color of hair and eyes)?

No...genes are the ultimate cause of nothing. Genes are the end result of a deeper cause. Genes, however, do play a role in change. Just as a car is involved in the process of rolling down the street, it is not in itself the cause -- the driver is.

[Guzman]

The 7000 deaths is US statistic !

I live in Canada which is populated in large part by fair skinned European stock. We have areas of the country (especially, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario with very sunny summers and a high UV index). The UK can have nice summers too and people frequently travel to hot climes and get far too much sun.


And for the last time Sydney is not fucking cool and cloudy all the time-I have been there it gets very hot and sunny. Have you never heard of Bondi beach

Besides which it is Australia as a whole that is the skin cancer capital of the world, not just Sydney. Guess which is second? Arizona! Are you going to tell me that Tucson is cool and cloudy too ( I lived for two years in Tucson)!

please back that up about Tuscon Arizona. And even so, virtually no one in the U.S. spends long periods of time out in the sun. Most people work and play indoors.

And compared to other areas in the world, Canada is one of the coolest/least sunny.

Back what up about Tucson? That Arizona has the second highest incidence of skin cancer in the world? http://www.azdhs.gov/phs/sunwise/. .

that is the non-malignant variety of skin cancer and would have nothing to do with breeding success or natural selection...try again.

[ck1]

so someone tell me why in the world I should believe natural selection is responsible for skin color? And don't even blame it on skin cancer, as you almost never see or hear of any 16-30 years coming down with terminal melanoma.

Do you accept the fact that genes control skin color (as well as the color of hair and eyes)?

No...genes are the ultimate cause of nothing. Genes are the end result of a deeper cause. Genes, however, do play a role in change. Just as a car is involved in the process of rolling down the street, it is not in itself the cause -- the driver is.

What exactly do genes do, then? What function do they serve? You could start with a consideration of the ~130 genes known to play a role in color. (Any why mutations in those genes alter color.)

[Guzman]

Do you accept the fact that genes control skin color (as well as the color of hair and eyes)?

No...genes are the ultimate cause of nothing. Genes are the end result of a deeper cause. Genes, however, do play a role in change. Just as a car is involved in the process of rolling down the street, it is not in itself the cause -- the driver is.

What exactly do genes do, then? What function do they serve? You could start with a consideration of the ~130 genes known to play a role in color. (Any why mutations in those genes alter color.)

well I'm not going to play like I know all the functions of genes, but what I do know is they are not the end-all be-all of biology. The organism is not defined or controlled by its DNA...instead, the DNA is defined and controlled by the organism. Genes are followers in evolutionary change, not leaders. Genomes resist genetic change and generally only do so as a last resort.