Dave hawkins on formation of varves.

[Lasting Damage]

in the recent suigetsu threads, Dave Hawkins makes a number of comments and allegations regarding the formation of varve systems.

One of the main points of contention is that Dave does not accept that the varves seen in suigetsu and other lakes are actual varves, that is, macroscopic layers formed as the result of annual seasonal cycles, and that he believes that these varves are the result of as yet undetermined shock events including tsunami, floods and earthquakes.


When asked what dave would expect from an annual system, dave says in this reply:

http://rantsnraves.org/showthread.ph...892#post220892

You ask what I would expect on the lake bottom if diatoms are blooming and settling. Frankly I don't know what to expect because in the 10 or so papers I have read on this topic so far (including Guoqiang et al. 2005 - Lake Sihailongwan which I read yesterday), do not demonstrate this critical relationship. They just assume it. To tell the truth, what I would expect in a closed off lake such as Suigetsu would be exactly what we seem to have in the top layers - a mess. Kitagawa says it's flocculated and Kato can't see any distinct layers.

Note here that dave has been explicitly told that the coring methods used by Kato and Kitagawa are piston cores, which would damage the highest sediments which are soft and unconsolidated (a point I will return to later)

Baldeggersee is a lake lying in the swiss mountains, and in 1995 a freeze core was taken. In this the process is different to a piston core, and a three sided sheath is slid into the sediment and the sediment contained is frozen in place. At no point is there any violent shock to the system as there are in piston and drill cores. As a result, sediments right up to the date of coring can be preserved, undisturbed, and in the core taken in 1993, we see varves running right up to the top of the core.



The core is taken from the deepest section of the lake, below the point at which bioturbation stops (around 50m) and varves run right to the top, which is clearly to the contrary of dave's expectations of "a mess"

Furthermore, dave goes into his thoughts on what happens in more detail:

http://rantsnraves.org/showthread.ph...036#post222036

To reiterate ... the evidence indicates that diatoms bloom and diatoms settle and clay sediment settles. But the idea of these things settling directly as distinct fine laminae is highly questionable. More likely in my opinion is the following ...

1) Diatoms bloom each year ... maybe twice or three times per year
2) Diatoms settle. But they also rise again, not sure what percentage come back
3) Sediment flows into the lake from the drainage basin and other lakes and forms floccules of clay particles
4) The flocculated clay settles.
5) The flocculated clay and diatoms accumulate in a non-layered fluffy, messy, watery mixture on the bottom of the lake.
6) Unusually heavy rainfall, earthquakes, typhoons, tsunamis, etc. periodically cause large inflows which disturb this fluffy mixture on the bottom and cause it to RE-settle, but this time in layers.

the evidence is clearly to the contradiction of point (5) above, and in 1993 there was no unusually heavy rainfall, earthquakes, typhoons or tsunami, or for that matter large periodic inflows which could unsettle the surface sediments. so dave's claimed mechanism for layer sorting just didn't happen.

In any case, while shock events may be able to sort things by size, they certainly would not be able to sort things by number, and certainly would not be able to sort radioactive isotopes. However again, this is clearly seen in the Baldeggersee cores:



This image shows the concentrations of Caesium isotopes by varve count, from the top, showing spikes in 1986 (chernobyl) and 1963 (the peak of nuclear weapon testing. Nothing in dave's models or claims could produce this pattern, and certainly nothing would be able to produce exactly the right number of varves down to the appropriate layers.

[Lasting Damage]

Dave additionally had concerns about the solidity of the upper sediments and (in general - variations aside, I will get to those too) that the upper layers are thicker. Again this is addressed in the Baldeggersee study:



The previous graphs show two cores, the amounts of water in the cores and the annual sedimentation rate in the cores.

As we can see, the water content of the upper sediments approaches 90%. That's not far off gravy, and even in the sections as low as 1885, is still somewhere in the region of 60%. Dave doubted the compressibility of these sediments, so does he really think that as we squash the water out of these upper sediments, that they will remain the same size, and that varves in these regions will retain their initial thickness? Additionally, does dave really think that apiston corer dropped onto sediments which contain that sort of level of water would really collect those sediments and not just mush them up?

well coupled into those graphs are the accumulation rates (grams of sediment per square centimetre per year) and these clearly show that the sedimentation rate in the top is in the region of the same rate further down, so how would it be that the upper sediments have a slightly lower sedimentation rate than the lower ones, but are thicker? Again, this goes against dave's claims of compressibility.

Dave has also expressed concerns about the differences between cores. It has been pointed out to him that settling would not be uniform over the entire lake bed - a point he did not really respond to as far as I can recall and find in looking through previous posts. Differences in settling rates however are clearly evident in the above graphs even though the cores are taken close together.

Relatively thick varves in lithological units A and B are simply the result of
lower compaction in the topmost part of the sediment core. This observation is also
manifested by high water content in unit A and no substantial increase in sediment
accumulation throughout units A and B

[post tenebras lux]

The lake in question:



And an interesting site (if you can read german) ---> http://www.baldegger-hallwilersee.ch...rmationen.html

[Nialler]

What Dave is describing is a new process. While fossils were laid down by Macro-Hydrological Sorting, Varves are a result of Micro-Hydrological Sorting. Like Evolution, see? Except that Macro_Evolution never happened.

[Occam's Aftershave]

What Dave is describing is a new process. While fossils were laid down by Macro-Hydrological Sorting, Varves are a result of Micro-Hydrological Sorting. Like Evolution, see? Except that Macro_Evolution never happened.

All except for the swimming burrowing animals, which God gave a "Get out of hydrological sorting free" card.

[Jobar]

Freeze cores- neat! Yet another thing I've learned which, without Dave, I probably wouldn't have.

This method is a perfect answer to the problem of preserving the uppermost layers intact, despite their soupiness. I'd mused a bit on ways to avoid disturbing these delicate top layers, which obviously drilled cores and impacted cores can't do.

[Gary Hurd]

Freeze cores- neat!

That is a great idea isn't it?

[Fathermithras]

I for one am glad I don't labor under theistic delusion.

When I see things like the vast consilience of evidence, and when I first understood the concept...It was amazing. It was like the universe was in a language I suddenly could speak and understand. Maybe I hadn't read everything in the stars, or even much of it, but the information was there and now it was open to me. That the human mind can and has done this amazed me and continues to amaze me.



On a less "naturalism wooo" note, the curves agreeing are amazing. And Amazingly sitty for dave.

[Gary Hurd]

I am relieved that nobody has called the freeze core method "cool."

Opps!

[espritch]

All I know is The Frozen Core would be a great name for a rock band.

[RAFH]

I am relieved that nobody has called the freeze core method "cool."

Opps!

Ah Gary, you are cool nonetheless. And so is the Freeze Core method.

It just goes to show that virtually everything TGBd has or will think of as a problem for whatever, somebody in the scientific fields has already thought of a solution. And it's only natural that tens of thousands upon tens of thousands of very intelligent, highly educated, well trained and experienced people used to dealing with significant problems and mysteries would come up with at least as much as one creo, his EE degree notwithstanding.

[Lasting Damage]

I should just add here that some of these papers are available in commons:

http://de.scientificcommons.org/20746886
http://en.scientificcommons.org/20746891

[Faid]

Dave will have to burrow really deep to avoid this one...

[Lasting Damage]

I am relieved that nobody has called the freeze core method "cool."

Opps!

we're too chilled out to do that.

[Oolon Colluphid]

All I know is The Frozen Core would be a great name for a rock band.

Or even a rock sample.

[Untheist]

Dave will have to burrow really deep to avoid this one...

Nah, he'll just have to burrow deep enough to bury his head in the sand.

[Oolon Colluphid]

Dave will have to burrow really deep to avoid this one...

Nah, he'll just have to burrow deep enough to bury his head in the sand.

The mantle is made of sand? Wow, I learn new geology stuff with each Davey thread...

[Febble]

When I see things like the vast consilience of evidence, and when I first understood the concept...It was amazing. It was like the universe was in a language I suddenly could speak and understand. Maybe I hadn't read everything in the stars, or even much of it, but the information was there and now it was open to me. That the human mind can and has done this amazed me and continues to amaze me.

That the universe was able to bring forth a mind able to begin to understand itself is what amazes me even more.

[Gagundathar Inexplicable]

I think Hawkins' cranium is denser than the mantle.
So, it would be like sand to him.

[Gagundathar Inexplicable]

When I see things like the vast consilience of evidence, and when I first understood the concept...It was amazing. It was like the universe was in a language I suddenly could speak and understand. Maybe I hadn't read everything in the stars, or even much of it, but the information was there and now it was open to me. That the human mind can and has done this amazed me and continues to amaze me.

That the universe was able to bring forth a mind able to begin to understand itself is what amazes me even more.

Lizzie, are you saying that we are the Universe perceiving itself?

[Febble]

When I see things like the vast consilience of evidence, and when I first understood the concept...It was amazing. It was like the universe was in a language I suddenly could speak and understand. Maybe I hadn't read everything in the stars, or even much of it, but the information was there and now it was open to me. That the human mind can and has done this amazed me and continues to amaze me.

That the universe was able to bring forth a mind able to begin to understand itself is what amazes me even more.

Lizzie, are you saying that we are the Universe perceiving itself?

Well, I AM part of the universe. Aren't you? And our knowledge is something that is not contained by any single mind.

[Gagundathar Inexplicable]

That the universe was able to bring forth a mind able to begin to understand itself is what amazes me even more.

Lizzie, are you saying that we are the Universe perceiving itself?

Well, I AM part of the universe. Aren't you? And our knowledge is something that is not contained by any single mind.

Certainly wasn't disagreeing with you. Just asking for clarification.
I don't disdain 'woo', I just try not to let my love of it distract me from rational thought.
BTW, I am suffering insomnia right now, and my thoughts seem somewhat different at 0400 in the morning.

[Febble]

Lizzie, are you saying that we are the Universe perceiving itself?

Well, I AM part of the universe. Aren't you? And our knowledge is something that is not contained by any single mind.

Certainly wasn't disagreeing with you. Just asking for clarification.
I don't disdain 'woo', I just try not to let my love of it distract me from rational thought.
BTW, I am suffering insomnia right now, and my thoughts seem somewhat different at 0400 in the morning.

Well, I hope it's clear that I'm not talking about "woo" although I AM talking about emergent properties. I think minds are an emergent property of the universe (i.e. that organisms with brains capable of "doing" mind evolved from self-replicating molecules on planet earth) and that knowledge of the universe is an emergent property of multiple minds.

Or, if you like, that "woo" is perfectly explicable, and therefore not woo.

[Wallybert]

l
l
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[Gagundathar Inexplicable]

Ah... the Deteriorata!
Lampoon mid 1970s.

Classic stuff, Wallybert.

I used to be able to quote long sections of it.