Lake Suigetsu: Flocculence Requires a Reevaluation

[Pappy Jack]

Slight derail, but I was trying to do some online research into varves and came across a reference to a 1986 Science article by P.E. Olsen regarding studies of sediments in the Newark Basin of New Jersey. Apparently over a period of some 40 million years there was 'excellent agreement between isotope dates and dates calibrated by varve layer counts'. More interestingly, there was also a correlation between 'regular variations in sediment layer thickness' and the Milankovich cycles defining irregularities in the Earth's orbit around the sun. These periodicities marked cycles of 25,000, 44,000, 100,000, 125,000 and 400,000 years (more information at http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/art..._12_7_2000.asp). Does anyone know any more details of this study or, indeed, if further research has either confirmed or undermined Olsen's conclusions? They seem to be yet another batch of consilient nails in Dave's young earth coffin.

[Mike PSS]

I'm not sure if this paper has been seen yet by LD or Dave or anyone else. It's a scan, I'll post some pertinent items that I find but I'm SURE Dave and others would like to read/review this information. It speaks directly to what LD has been saying about Meromictic biology. It goes in depth on the biologic characteristics of the Lake 20 years BEFORE the whole varve thingy.

Studies on Biological Metabolism in Meromictic Lake Suigetsu; Matsuyama and Saij; Journal of the Oceanographical Society of Japan; Vol27 No5; pp197-206; 1971

clip_image003.JPG

Happy reading Dave and LD. I hope you can elucidate the difference between a fresh water and meromictic lake from this paper.

[Coragyps]

Does anyone know any more details of this study...

I have the article and could send you the pdf - just PM me an email addy. Science only goes back to 1880 online.....

[Susannah]

I think all this neg repping is very junior high-ish so I'm not going to stoop to do it as LD just did, ...

By the way, Dave... for you, it's not a question of "stooping".

The system won't even let you "neg-rep" until you can lift your own reputation over zero.

So he's claiming to be holier-than-thou, oh-so-mature, virtuously resisting temptation, when he has been prevented from indulging himself? Hmmm...

The phrase, "the odour of sanctity", comes to mind.

(Where's that bilious green smiley?)

[SophistiCat]

I did a 10-minute search for detailed sedimentation studies and came up with this example: Lake Sihailongwan in Northeastern China (this is a poster with an overview of recent work there):

In 2001 a 38.8-m-deep core was retrieved from Lake Sihailongwan using a Usinger piston core. This core covers at least the last 60,000 years and remarkably almost the whole profile is laminated. The annual nature of these laminations (= varves) has been confirmed by the study of thin sections.

Annual varve deposition in this lake continues to this day. Currently sedimentation is studied using sediment traps:

Guoqiang Chu, Jiaqi Liu, G. Schettler, Jiaying Li, Qing Sun, Zhaoyan Gu, Houyuan Lu, Qiang Liu and Tungsheng Liu.
Sediment fluxes and varve formation in Sihailongwan, a maar lake from northeastern China.
Journal of Paleolimnology, 34, 311-324 (2005).

Abstract

Data derived from monthly sediment traps in Sihailongwan, a maar lake in northeastern China, yielded a detailed record of seasonal sediment fluxes. Sediment fluxes correspond to seasonal climatic variations. The diatom flux shows two distinct peaks in September and November, whereas the flux of chrysophyte stomatocysts shows a maximum in May. The blooms of diatoms may be related to the subsequent deepening of the thermocline in September and lake overturn in spring and November, and influx of nutrientrich groundwater sometime after the onset of the summer monsoon. The fluxes of organic matter and siliciclastics show a distinct seasonal pattern. They are varying between 0.03 and 0.56 g m^-2 d^-1 and reach a maximum in May. Quartz in the trap samples indicates that the siliciclastic matter may originate from distant aeolian sources. Sediment trap data and thin section investigations confirm the seasonality of Lake Sihailongwan sediments. Dark-colored layer, which mainly consists of valves of Cyclotella comta, might be deposited during autumn, and then is followed by a light-colored mixed layer starting with siliciclastics deposited after ice-out. The varved sediments in the U-shaped Lake Sihailongwan represent a sensitive siliciclastic and geochemical archive of paleoenvironmental variability in this data-sparse area. Detailed investigations of varved sediments should provide decadal to annual records of seasonal sediment flux and its relation to climatic parameters. Especially the diatomaceous layer is regarded to indicate summer climatic fluctuations, while the thick siliciclastic layer could be an indictor of dust events.

[Steviepinhead]

Prediction: dave will ignore Sophisticat's post, until it has been repeatedly rubbed in his face.

At which point, a few more "impolite" posters will earn the coveted "ignored by dave" status...

[RAFH]

Slight derail, but I was trying to do some online research into varves and came across a reference to a 1986 Science article by P.E. Olsen regarding studies of sediments in the Newark Basin of New Jersey. Apparently over a period of some 40 million years there was 'excellent agreement between isotope dates and dates calibrated by varve layer counts'. More interestingly, there was also a correlation between 'regular variations in sediment layer thickness' and the Milankovich cycles defining irregularities in the Earth's orbit around the sun. These periodicities marked cycles of 25,000, 44,000, 100,000, 125,000 and 400,000 years (more information at http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/art..._12_7_2000.asp). Does anyone know any more details of this study or, indeed, if further research has either confirmed or undermined Olsen's conclusions? They seem to be yet another batch of consilient nails in Dave's young earth coffin.

Pappy, have you done any search on Olsen?
There appears to be a lot of stuff on and by him. Notably:
http://hcr3.isiknowledge.com/formVie...le=Publication
which is titled "Highly Cited Researchers".

which led me to this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=g-5...pzrCbMnWUoNnuU




This appears to be a gold mine, though not necessarily on this subject:
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~schlisch/articles.html

Here's the search results: Lots of interesting stuff
http://www.google.com/search?q=P.E.+...ient=firefox-a

[Coragyps]

There's poetry there......

"April is the cruelest month
But the flux of chrysophyte stomatocysts shows a maximum in May."

[RAFH]

I did a 10-minute search for detailed sedimentation studies and came up with this example: Lake Sihailongwan in Northeastern China (this is a poster with an overview of recent work there):

In 2001 a 38.8-m-deep core was retrieved from Lake Sihailongwan using a Usinger piston core. This core covers at least the last 60,000 years and remarkably almost the whole profile is laminated. The annual nature of these laminations (= varves) has been confirmed by the study of thin sections.

Annual varve deposition in this lake continues to this day. Currently sedimentation is studied using sediment traps:

Guoqiang Chu, Jiaqi Liu, G. Schettler, Jiaying Li, Qing Sun, Zhaoyan Gu, Houyuan Lu, Qiang Liu and Tungsheng Liu.
Sediment fluxes and varve formation in Sihailongwan, a maar lake from northeastern China.
Journal of Paleolimnology, 34, 311-324 (2005).

Abstract

Data derived from monthly sediment traps in Sihailongwan, a maar lake in northeastern China, yielded a detailed record of seasonal sediment fluxes. Sediment fluxes correspond to seasonal climatic variations. The diatom flux shows two distinct peaks in September and November, whereas the flux of chrysophyte stomatocysts shows a maximum in May. The blooms of diatoms may be related to the subsequent deepening of the thermocline in September and lake overturn in spring and November, and influx of nutrientrich groundwater sometime after the onset of the summer monsoon. The fluxes of organic matter and siliciclastics show a distinct seasonal pattern. They are varying between 0.03 and 0.56 g m^-2 d^-1 and reach a maximum in May. Quartz in the trap samples indicates that the siliciclastic matter may originate from distant aeolian sources. Sediment trap data and thin section investigations confirm the seasonality of Lake Sihailongwan sediments. Dark-colored layer, which mainly consists of valves of Cyclotella comta, might be deposited during autumn, and then is followed by a light-colored mixed layer starting with siliciclastics deposited after ice-out. The varved sediments in the U-shaped Lake Sihailongwan represent a sensitive siliciclastic and geochemical archive of paleoenvironmental variability in this data-sparse area. Detailed investigations of varved sediments should provide decadal to annual records of seasonal sediment flux and its relation to climatic parameters. Especially the diatomaceous layer is regarded to indicate summer climatic fluctuations, while the thick siliciclastic layer could be an indictor of dust events.

D'ya see this. davey?
Did'ya note the bolded part, davey?

Can you now see the errors of your past ways and stoop just a little to grant Sophisticat the davey Order of Ignorance. Sophisticat is truly deserving of your Ignoration of him. He has worked hard to find data for you to Ignore and I am sure if provoked, he'll even tell you to fuck off and die, though politely, of course, with the proper respect you, the davey, are due.

[Mike PSS]

There's poetry there......

"April is the cruelest month
But the flux of chrysophyte stomatocysts shows a maximum in May."

But I'm sure if you translate into Chinese it's pentameter appears.

[Mike PSS]

I did a 10-minute search for detailed sedimentation studies and came up with this example: Lake Sihailongwan in Northeastern China (this is a poster with an overview of recent work there):

In 2001 a 38.8-m-deep core was retrieved from Lake Sihailongwan using a Usinger piston core. This core covers at least the last 60,000 years and remarkably almost the whole profile is laminated. The annual nature of these laminations (= varves) has been confirmed by the study of thin sections.

Annual varve deposition in this lake continues to this day. Currently sedimentation is studied using sediment traps:

Guoqiang Chu, Jiaqi Liu, G. Schettler, Jiaying Li, Qing Sun, Zhaoyan Gu, Houyuan Lu, Qiang Liu and Tungsheng Liu.
Sediment fluxes and varve formation in Sihailongwan, a maar lake from northeastern China.
Journal of Paleolimnology, 34, 311-324 (2005).

Abstract

Data derived from monthly sediment traps in Sihailongwan, a maar lake in northeastern China, yielded a detailed record of seasonal sediment fluxes. Sediment fluxes correspond to seasonal climatic variations. The diatom flux shows two distinct peaks in September and November, whereas the flux of chrysophyte stomatocysts shows a maximum in May. The blooms of diatoms may be related to the subsequent deepening of the thermocline in September and lake overturn in spring and November, and influx of nutrientrich groundwater sometime after the onset of the summer monsoon. The fluxes of organic matter and siliciclastics show a distinct seasonal pattern. They are varying between 0.03 and 0.56 g m^-2 d^-1 and reach a maximum in May. Quartz in the trap samples indicates that the siliciclastic matter may originate from distant aeolian sources. Sediment trap data and thin section investigations confirm the seasonality of Lake Sihailongwan sediments. Dark-colored layer, which mainly consists of valves of Cyclotella comta, might be deposited during autumn, and then is followed by a light-colored mixed layer starting with siliciclastics deposited after ice-out. The varved sediments in the U-shaped Lake Sihailongwan represent a sensitive siliciclastic and geochemical archive of paleoenvironmental variability in this data-sparse area. Detailed investigations of varved sediments should provide decadal to annual records of seasonal sediment flux and its relation to climatic parameters. Especially the diatomaceous layer is regarded to indicate summer climatic fluctuations, while the thick siliciclastic layer could be an indictor of dust events.

D'ya see this. davey?
Did'ya note the bolded part, davey?

Can you now see the errors of your past ways and stoop just a little to grant Sophisticat the davey Order of Ignorance. Sophisticat is truly deserving of your Ignoration of him. He has worked hard to find data for you to Ignore and I am sure if provoked, he'll even tell you to fuck off and die, though politely, of course, with the proper respect you, the davey, are due.

Ditto from me Dave.

Or is 2005 too long ago for your "Show me an active varving Lake today." schtick?

[Dave Hawkins]

Annual varve deposition in this lake continues to this day. Currently sedimentation is studied using sediment traps:

This is YOUR statement, not theirs. Do they say this also? At least this sounds like they are trying to determine if the varving process is happening today. Good on them. I wonder how long they have been observing. I'll request this paper also.

[SophistiCat]

D'ya see this. davey?
Did'ya note the bolded part, davey?

Thanks for the rep. Answering your rep comment, I was being lazy (well, that's like saying "I was alive") and just googled "varve diatom" (not all varves are due to seasonal diatom blooms). It's the 8th result from the top.

[Mike PSS]

Annual varve deposition in this lake continues to this day. Currently sedimentation is studied using sediment traps:

This is YOUR statement, not theirs. Do they say this also? At least this sounds like they are trying to determine if the varving process is happening today. Good on them. I wonder how long they have been observing. I'll request this paper also.

Dave you suffer from chronic foot-in-mouth disease.

At least read the paper before making rude and idiotic statements that are easily answered in the post your referencing.

I'd neg rep you just in spite, but I don't neg rep stupidity. There is a cure for that condition you just haven't found it yet.

[VoxRat]

Annual varve deposition in this lake continues to this day. Currently sedimentation is studied using sediment traps:

This is YOUR statement, not theirs. Do they say this also? At least this sounds like they are trying to determine if the varving process is happening today. Good on them. I wonder how long they have been observing. I'll request this paper also.

I have the paper, Dave.
Give it up. Here's a hint: do you know what sediment traps are?

I wonder how long they have been observing.

What the hell is that supposed to mean???

You can be damn sure they've been observing a lot longer than you have, Davey. You want to give us your cut-off criteria now for "how long" is good enough for you? Or do you want to wait till you get the paper to declare that - however long it is - it's not long enough for you?

[RAFH]

Thanks.

Following up, using Lake Sihailongwan as search term:
http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU06...3476a621d954f5
http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/AVH3/...6a7ebedb95c06b
http://www.springerlink.com/content/q000207522111241/ (article you cited)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...b945279b61dc40
http://hol.sagepub.com/cgi/content/refs/16/8/1043
The paper itself:
http://hol.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/16/8/1043.pdf


http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2004AGUFMGC51D1072Si

And the critical item:
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00003/00004694
discussing the monthly sampling of the sediment traps. There's your current formation davey. The results from the traps is what one would predict based on the contents of the recent varves. Gotcha!

http://springerlink.metapress.com/co...68u002049037g/

Cripes, it goes on and on.

As I've said before davey. It goes on and on. You are one little moaning voice in the wilderness, baying at the raging blizzard racing past you. You have no idea of the extent of evidence arrayed against you, and funnily enough, none of it was created to convince you.

[RAFH]

Annual varve deposition in this lake continues to this day. Currently sedimentation is studied using sediment traps:

This is YOUR statement, not theirs. Do they say this also? At least this sounds like they are trying to determine if the varving process is happening today. Good on them. I wonder how long they have been observing. I'll request this paper also.

Just another indication davey will insist on seeing, up close and personal, a varve actually forming. Maybe we can embed him in the lake bed so he can watch it for himself. He could even become a part of the varves. Wouldn't that be ironic?

[Dave Hawkins]

Annual varve deposition in this lake continues to this day. Currently sedimentation is studied using sediment traps:

This is YOUR statement, not theirs. Do they say this also? At least this sounds like they are trying to determine if the varving process is happening today. Good on them. I wonder how long they have been observing. I'll request this paper also.

Dave you suffer from chronic foot-in-mouth disease.

At least read the paper before making rude and idiotic statements that are easily answered in the post your referencing.

I'd neg rep you just in spite, but I don't neg rep stupidity. There is a cure for that condition you just haven't found it yet.

What in the world are you talking about? Why do you answer a post directed to Sophisticat?

[Occam's Aftershave]

This is YOUR statement, not theirs. Do they say this also? At least this sounds like they are trying to determine if the varving process is happening today. Good on them. I wonder how long they have been observing. I'll request this paper also.

Dave you suffer from chronic foot-in-mouth disease.

At least read the paper before making rude and idiotic statements that are easily answered in the post your referencing.

I'd neg rep you just in spite, but I don't neg rep stupidity. There is a cure for that condition you just haven't found it yet.

What in the world are you talking about? Why do you answer a post directed to Sophisticat?

Maybe because this is an OPEN discussion on an OPEN BB.

Just how fucking stupid does your huge ego make you anyway Hawkins?

[RAFH]

This is YOUR statement, not theirs. Do they say this also? At least this sounds like they are trying to determine if the varving process is happening today. Good on them. I wonder how long they have been observing. I'll request this paper also.

Dave you suffer from chronic foot-in-mouth disease.

At least read the paper before making rude and idiotic statements that are easily answered in the post your referencing.

I'd neg rep you just in spite, but I don't neg rep stupidity. There is a cure for that condition you just haven't found it yet.

What in the world are you talking about?

You, davey, of course. Who else?

Why do you answer a post directed to Sophisticat?

Because he wanted to, and he could and because this is a forum. Everyone is entitled to comment on anything posted. Just like I am.

[Serafina Pekkala]

No they didn't Dave. From your own web site quoting the paper I get



and



It's a small detail, but changing 2/3 or "large portions" to 3/4 and claiming the authors said it is STILL A LIE on your part.

That's why you have a rep rating of -151 Dave.

Do you think he lied or made a stupid mistake.

Sari

False dichotomy. He lied and he made a mistake.

davey does that all the time. Sometimes he's so bad at both lying and making mistakes he invalidates himself in the same sentence. Then turns around and in the next sentence invalidates his previous invalidation and then lies about being mistaken about it.

David, why did you lie about what the paper said? We read it and we know it does not say what you claimed it says. Why did you lie?

Sari

[Jobar]

Maybe we can embed him in the lake bed so he can watch it for himself. He could even become a part of the varves. Wouldn't that be ironic?

I say, let's test that! I happen to have several bags of cement.

[mung bean]

Maybe we can embed him in the lake bed so he can watch it for himself. He could even become a part of the varves. Wouldn't that be ironic?

I say, let's test that! I happen to have several bags of cement.

I don't think so. If we want to do the experiment properly the way to do it is to leave Davey floating in the middle of the lake until he sinks of his own accord. That's how you make varves, innit?


OI! DAVEY! Help a non-sciency dude out here. Explain to me little self why your flood deposited diatoms aren't also distributed all over the surrounding countryside like your flood deposited volcanic ash is. You know, the ash that's mixed in with the diatoms. That ash.

Y'see Davey boy that's your biggest problem. The volcanic ash falls can be found all over the place. Basically wherever the ash fell. It does that. The diatoms, OTOH, are only in the lake(s). So even without all the other corroborating evidence you're stuffed on this one basic point. You know me Dave. I leave the really esoteric stuff to those more qualified and just go for your bollocks with something clear and irrevocable. I know ya luvs me.

[Lasting Damage]

I did a 10-minute search for detailed sedimentation studies and came up with this example: Lake Sihailongwan in Northeastern China (this is a poster with an overview of recent work there):

In 2001 a 38.8-m-deep core was retrieved from Lake Sihailongwan using a Usinger piston core. This core covers at least the last 60,000 years and remarkably almost the whole profile is laminated. The annual nature of these laminations (= varves) has been confirmed by the study of thin sections.

Annual varve deposition in this lake continues to this day. Currently sedimentation is studied using sediment traps:

Guoqiang Chu, Jiaqi Liu, G. Schettler, Jiaying Li, Qing Sun, Zhaoyan Gu, Houyuan Lu, Qiang Liu and Tungsheng Liu.
Sediment fluxes and varve formation in Sihailongwan, a maar lake from northeastern China.
Journal of Paleolimnology, 34, 311-324 (2005).

Abstract

Data derived from monthly sediment traps in Sihailongwan, a maar lake in northeastern China, yielded a detailed record of seasonal sediment fluxes. Sediment fluxes correspond to seasonal climatic variations. The diatom flux shows two distinct peaks in September and November, whereas the flux of chrysophyte stomatocysts shows a maximum in May. The blooms of diatoms may be related to the subsequent deepening of the thermocline in September and lake overturn in spring and November, and influx of nutrientrich groundwater sometime after the onset of the summer monsoon. The fluxes of organic matter and siliciclastics show a distinct seasonal pattern. They are varying between 0.03 and 0.56 g m^-2 d^-1 and reach a maximum in May. Quartz in the trap samples indicates that the siliciclastic matter may originate from distant aeolian sources. Sediment trap data and thin section investigations confirm the seasonality of Lake Sihailongwan sediments. Dark-colored layer, which mainly consists of valves of Cyclotella comta, might be deposited during autumn, and then is followed by a light-colored mixed layer starting with siliciclastics deposited after ice-out. The varved sediments in the U-shaped Lake Sihailongwan represent a sensitive siliciclastic and geochemical archive of paleoenvironmental variability in this data-sparse area. Detailed investigations of varved sediments should provide decadal to annual records of seasonal sediment flux and its relation to climatic parameters. Especially the diatomaceous layer is regarded to indicate summer climatic fluctuations, while the thick siliciclastic layer could be an indictor of dust events.

nice paper, I'll be looking at that one. There are quite a few interesting matches between things in China and Japan, again stuff historically recorded such as hot spells and so on.

[Pappy Jack]

Thanks for that Olsen info, Coragyps & RAFH.