Richard Carrier loses credibity for me

[ShirleyR]

I've read Richard Carrier's book Sense and Goodness without God and was impressed with it. When I heard Tom Verenna (or Rook Hawkins) was going to have his book peer reviewed by Carrier I thought this was a lie straight from Verenna's mouth. So, I emailed Carrier:

Dear Dr. Carrier,

While going through the "Jesus Project" website, I was taken aback that a one Thomas Verenna was listed as one of the contributors. If you didn't know, Verenna was once known as "Rook Hawkins." He was a part of a group called "The Rational Response Squad" that accused Richard Dawkins of having an affair with another woman! Verenna has a history of plagiarism and lies! You can read about him here:

www.myspace.com/thomasverenna

Apart from that, he has no College degree. He only has a high school diploma.

How did this teenager become a part of your group there at "Jesus Project"? Do you support Verenna? Surely, you realize this man is an embarrassment.

Shirley R.

And this is what Dr. Carrier wrote back (by the way, Verenna had the myspace site taken down, but you can find the same information here):

3/1/2009

You've been lied to. Unless you are a sock puppet for the liar (he's done that before, so I can't be sure you're not another instance of him doing that), Tom is a staff member and editor for the project, his scholarship will be peer reviewed, he has not committed plagiarism, and had nothing to do with any claims about Dawkins.

Dr. Carrier just said that Verenna has "scholarship" and that he'll be "peer reviewed"! Verenna obviously copied off of Dennis McKinsey. Verenna is a pervert. Verenna only has a high school degree. Verenna is a co-founder of The Rational Response Squad who is responsible for saying Dawkins had an affair with another woman. How can Dr. Carrier back Verenna up? I think atheists have to start considering the right people to group themselves with. I think Dr. Carrier has just lost all sense of credibility because of this.

[rigorist]

So who is Carrier accusing of being "the liar"?

[IGExpandingPanda]

Dr. Carrier just said that Verenna has "scholarship" and that he'll be "peer reviewed"! Verenna obviously copied off of Dennis McKinsey. Verenna is a pervert. Verenna only has a high school degree. Verenna is a co-founder of The Rational Response Squad who is responsible for saying Dawkins had an affair with another woman. How can Dr. Carrier back Verenna up? I think atheists have to start considering the right people to group themselves with. I think Dr. Carrier has just lost all sense of credibility because of this.

The Dawkins rumor, according to sources this was just Sapient and Kelly.
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http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com...nted-proof.gif

If you have any evidence Rook was involved with that thing, do share it, but until I hear otherwise this is something that I won't blame Rook for.

Rook has also made it clear he's distancing him self from the Squad, and that does give me SOME credibility, not much but some.

The scholarship issue, yes that's a problem. It was the claim of TJP that 50 scholars with real credentials would be a part of it, and he's listed as a fellow. That is an issue that need to be addressed.

Now if he was just listed as staff, there would be no issue, but he's listed as a fellow along side some big hitters, which Carrier isn't one.

[Imaginary Mark]

Is rook really going to be an editor for the project?


ETA:
Speaking of credibility, check out the similar threads.

[shitshou]

who is richard carrier?

[Vagabonder]

Richard Carrier wrote an article called Why I'm Not A Christian and another one called Our Meaning In Life. They were pretty influential articles in my mid to late stages of deconverting from Fundamentalist Christianity.

[seebs]

I don't think it's fair to blame Verenna for the RRS/Carrier feud. I do see a concern with his credentials, though -- unless he's working on them.

On the other hand, I am more inclined to think he really will get peer reviewed now.

[ShirleyR]

rigorist: So who is Carrier accusing of being "the liar"?

He's probably talking about either the author of the "Thomas Verenna is a lying idiot" blog; or of Frank Walton.


IGExpandingPanda: If you have any evidence Rook was involved with that thing, do share it, but until I hear otherwise this is something that I won't blame Rook for.

I know that Brian and Kelly said it, but Rook was a part of the group. He's a co-founder.

Rook has also made it clear he's distancing him self from the Squad, and that does give me SOME credibility, not much but some.

But Rook was still with the RRS when they made the claim about Dawkins.

The scholarship issue, yes that's a problem. It was the claim of TJP that 50 scholars with real credentials would be a part of it, and he's listed as a fellow. That is an issue that need to be addressed.

Now if he was just listed as staff, there would be no issue, but he's listed as a fellow along side some big hitters, which Carrier isn't one.

What made Carrier trust Tom Verenna/Rook Hawkins? How can Carrier even take Verenna seriously in the first place?

Imaginary Mark: Is rook really going to be an editor for the project?

That's what the site said. And Richard Carrier confirmed it in the quote above. What more can be said? I wish Carrier and the people at TJP would reconsider. This is just wrong.

[ShirleyR]

I don't think it's fair to blame Verenna for the RRS/Carrier feud. I do see a concern with his credentials, though -- unless he's working on them.

On the other hand, I am more inclined to think he really will get peer reviewed now.

I didn't know that RRS and Carrier were feuding against one another. I didn't say that. But, if they're feuding, then good. The RRS are disgusting people, so is Tom Verenna. Carrier doesn't strike me as a disgusting human being. But, when he aligns himself with Verenna, and, worse, defends him, that's not good for him or anybody with a scholarly background.

[IGExpandingPanda]

IGExpandingPanda: If you have any evidence Rook was involved with that thing, do share it, but until I hear otherwise this is something that I won't blame Rook for.

I know that Brian and Kelly said it, but Rook was a part of the group. He's a co-founder.

I'm aware that Rook is a co-founder. That means jack shit. I'm all for being critical of Rook but is there ANY evidence that Rook had ANYTHING to do with the Dawkins rumor? Anything?

Sure you could say he was part of the group, but that's just guilt by association, and to be frank, sensational crap. Brian and Kelly did the Dawkins rumor deal, near as I'm aware Rook had nothing to do with that crap.

Rook has also made it clear he's distancing him self from the Squad, and that does give me SOME credibility, not much but some.

But Rook was still with the RRS when they made the claim about Dawkins.

You COULD say that, and you MIGHT be able to get away with it if this was something they officially published on their website or stickam show. But this was something that happened on skype chat IIRC. Rook has NO control over Sapient's mouth. Hell, Sapient has no control over his mouth.

You "might" be able to connect him to dumping thongs on Richard Dawkins's table. He was at AAI then and he might have carried thongs. But I don't know for a fact he did.

What made Carrier trust Tom Verenna/Rook Hawkins? How can Carrier even take Verenna seriously in the first place?

I have no clue. Perhaps Carrier sees Rook as an enthusiastic student and want to mold him into the perfect mythicist. Gawd knows there are not many people interested in that conspiracy theory.


But please, keep your criticism honest. I can't hold Rook remotely accountable for the Dawkins rumor. Unlike the duo he actually had downtime and near as I'm aware he wasn't part of that chat session.

[Nialler]

One thing that I enjoy about Carrier and Verenna is that they have both referred to their "fans". I know that in the Jesus Mythicism arena there are all stripes and hues of mythicists, but I wasn't aware that they had "fans".

I can't wait for Carrier's world-wide tour of major stadiums, and I can promise that when he brings his act to Paris I'll be at the front of the crowd, screaming and blubbing like a hormone-filled teenybopper. My guess is that security will have to take me outside and revive me at some point.

I hope that I don't wet myself when he walks on stage, but I can't guarantee that I won't.

[rigorist]

The thought of Da Rookie "editing" anything is amusing.

[MattShizzle]

As bad as his own writing is, that is silly.

[AbsoluteSpunk]

FYI I do not think Rook/Tom was online or even aware of the Dawkins infidelity rumor that Brian and Kelly started. There was a chat log or a screenshot or both, and Rook wasn't in it.

[MattShizzle]

From what he sent me, something must have happened that he no longer wanted to be associated with the RRS.

[AbsoluteSpunk]

From what he sent me, something must have happened that he no longer wanted to be associated with the RRS.

On the one hand, that's a relief, because the RRS should be shunned. But on the other hand, he is working with Rook/Tom, who has not made any public statement distancing himself from the RRS, so, Carrier is effectively still working with the RRS because he is still working with Rook.

[MattShizzle]

I actually meant Rook/Tom, not Richard Carrier.

[AbsoluteSpunk]

I actually meant Rook/Tom, not Richard Carrier.

oh snap

well i'm still on my first cup of coffee, i'll catch up soon

[MattShizzle]

I'm not sure why he hasn't publicly distanced himself - maybe he'd rather it not be known he was ever part of the RRS?

[AbsoluteSpunk]

I'm not sure why he hasn't publicly distanced himself - maybe he'd rather it not be known he was ever part of the RRS?

Well there is no shortage of people on the internet who want to tell the world that Tom Verenna is/was Rook Hawkins. Google for giggles. Rook's website is still up, still linking to the RRS, but his MySpace is deleted.

The thing is, Rook's position (as a Jesus Mythicist) is the same as Carrier's position, which as many of us know, is a minority position even amongst strident atheists. So these guys are going to continue to support each other's work no matter what name Rook/Tom is using. And all of those Jesus-Myth guys are all in cahoots with each other anyway.

[shitshou]

Richard Carrier wrote an article called Why I'm Not A Christian and another one called Our Meaning In Life. They were pretty influential articles in my mid to late stages of deconverting from Fundamentalist Christianity.

so he's an internet celebrity like rrs kelly and rlogan?

[AbsoluteSpunk]

Richard Carrier wrote an article called Why I'm Not A Christian and another one called Our Meaning In Life. They were pretty influential articles in my mid to late stages of deconverting from Fundamentalist Christianity.

so he's an internet celebrity like rrs kelly and rlogan?

In addition to being an internet atheist he is also a professional atheist IRL and he gives speeches and signs copies of his books.

He once signed a copy of his book for me, which was a wedding gift for some friends who really like his work. The groom was also a huge fan of Ayn Rand.

Anyway, Richard is very active in the atheist speaker circuit and he brings in a huge crowd. He even has a talk today at 4pm in CA:

Special Event - Richard Carrier , Ph.D. "Did Jesus Even Exist?"

Location
E.P. Foster Library

Topping Room
651 E. Main St.
Ventura, CA 93001

Richard Carrier is a nationally-renowned author and speaker. He holds a Ph.D. from Columbia University in ancient history, specializing in the intellectual history of Greece and Rome, particularly ancient philosophy, religion, and science, with emphasis on the origins of Christianity and the use and progress of science under the Roman empire. He is currently working on his next book On the Historicity of Jesus Christ.

Dr. Carrier will summarize some of the arguments of his forthcoming book On the Historicity of Jesus Christ, suggesting there is a reasonable case to be made that Jesus might not have been a historical person, but was instead a mythical character who became ‘historicized’ over time like other Greco-Roman gods and heroes. You'll find the evidence fascinating and thought-provoking.

More lecture dates and events here: Appearing in Ventura

Anyway he is a nice guy and if you share his views that Jesus was a mythical character, you would enjoy his talk.

[Entomophila]

Talk about an optimistic attitude. I love that Carrier writes that Tom WILL BE peer-reviewed. Is Carrier a psychic? How can such a thing be guaranteed?

It would be dishonest to put Verenna's name on a manuscript unless he has done actual research. Putting a name on a manuscript as a courtesy is usually frowned upon. I think Carrier would lose respect in his field for putting Tom's name on a paper. Maybe he hasn't read Tom's work. Maybe he (Carrier) is just a junk historian.

Tom can't write even a basic sentence. It sounds fishy to me.

[MattShizzle]

He did hang out with the squad for like a week, made a bunch of shows and even got drunk with them - of course that was before they went into major fail mode.

[RayvenAlandria]

To be honest, I have been wondering why Carrier is helping Rook change identities and hide his RRS past. Why would he risk his career for someone like Rook?

The RRS is, and always had been, a scam. They are nothing but con-artists and Rook has not publicly disavowed them. I wonder why? Does Sapient have dirt on him? Does he have dirt on Carrier as well?

I have lost all respect for Carrier. If he helps Rook scam the whole world, he may end up having the dubious distinction of being the only well known atheist speaker to have other atheists protesting at his talks.